"Do we ask people to march in the streets, do we ask people not to go to work, to demand a government that is going to detain them and torture them?"

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SOCIALIST ACTION SEPTEMBER 1992 15 torium on retrenchments-to halt big business from retrenching us and to find other alternatives for that. now embarked on a campaign of mass We are also involved on a major cam- action oriented toward CODESA. What is paign on education, and we are involved in NACTU's stance on this negotiations procampaigns with organizations outside cess with the government? NACTU-like the anti-VAT [Value Added MS: First and foremost, we have been Tax] campaign. skeptical about the nature of the composiSA: What demands are you raising in tion of CODESA as such. Because if you the campaign against the Value Added Tax? look at the people there, you have all the MS: We are demanding that basic food- Bantustan puppets—those people who stuffs should not be taxed. Medicinal come from the "homelands." They have services and medicine itself should not be never been democratic. They have never taxed. Electricity and water should not be been on our side. We cannot negotiate freetaxed. dom with puppets.

SA: And how are you carrying out the We been pursuing the struggle to remove anti-VAT campaign? Through what sorts the regime from office-not to be assimiof actions? lated into their structures. CODESA is not MS: Last year, we campaigned and removing the regime. CODESA is finding eventually ended up with a national strike accommodation. It is to ameliorate of two days—on that issue alone. This apartheid. year, there's a lot of confusion. We're at a SA: In your opinion, has the CODESA situation where the ANC [African National negotiations process had an effect on tradeCongress] wants to call a national mobi- union developments and struggles? lization on the demands of CODESA MS: To a certain extent, yes. I'll say [Convention for a Democratic South why. South Africa's media has made Africa, the negotiations forum with the CODESA the "thing." Workers are hoodgovernment]. If we're going to start anoth- winked to wait-to hold your horses-and er campaign, it might confuse people, but see that something "good" is coming. You eventually, if nothing happens, we'll have understand? The media has, to a large no alternative but to embark once more on extent, succeeded in doing that. the mass action. The question is, for those who are comBut now what we're going to do, for ing to workers and asking workers to vote example, with the ever-increasing prices of for them—what will be there for the workfood, is to target certain foodstuffs. For ers? What is the incentive? example, if they increase the price of bread, So we need to sharpen the workers as to we will then target bread—say for a what kinds of questions to ask. For examweek-and say nobody buys bread. The fol- ple, the ANC is demanding an interim lowing week, we'll target, say, red meat, or government. The question is, with whom? target white meat, until we can get a proper They've got to spell it out. response. Also, there are people who are complainSA: You ing that the ANC tortured them. I think you've read about that. And the ANC is not denying that they did those things. Now, one of the working groups of CODESA-Working Group One-in which the ANC was represented, came with a recommendation that the interim government must have the power to detain people without trial.

There's a common denominator there between the ANC and the Nationalist Party [of President De Klerk]. The Nationalist Party government is equally notorious about detentions without trial. How can you combine the viciousness of the ANC and the viciousness of the Nationalist Party and hope you can have democracy?

Do we ask people to march in the streets, do we ask people not to go to work, to demand a government that is going to detain them and torture them? There are lots of contradictions there. Workers need to know these things and to ask questions of the leadership of the ANC. It will be interesting whether the ANC leadership is interested in getting into public debate over these key questions.

SA: NACTU, as well as COSATU [Congress of South African Trade Unions], has called for an economic forum with the goverment and the employers. Could you explain this demand?

MS: We intended to put together an economic forum to deal with immediate issues that affect workers. One of those issues is that of retrenchments, which I talked about. The economic forum must negotiate the question of a moratorium on retrenchments, We want to discuss the question of job creation in this country. Job training. We discussed there, for example, was a declaration of workers' rights in this country. Which means that once we've got a document of workers' rights, it is a document we want to be inscribed in the constitution. Now, that is not a decision that can be taken by COSATU and NACTU members only. You need to get everybody to have input into that document.

If you look at the labor laws in South Africa as they stand, workers are allowed to strike but they are not protected even if they follow the procedure. They can still be dismissed for going on strike. What we need to do is to inscribe the constitutional right of workers to go on strikeso when they get dismissed, we can then take their case to a constitutional court.

SA: Could you explain? When you say you want to reach out to other workers, do you mean to workers who are not organized—so that everyone could attend the summit—or do you mean to other unions?

MS: To other unions who are not necessarily in one of the two major federations. We are inviting workers from what we usually call in this country the "independent" trade unions, that is, not affiliated to either of us.

SA: Now, back to the question of NACTU and COSATU, what are the prospects for merger of the two big federations?

MS: I think at this point, the prospects for merger must be postponed. But at this stage, we are involved in interaction and working together on those issues on which we fully agree-like the VAT issue or the moratorium on retrenchments. So on those issues that affect workers directly, we have common positions, and we work together.

SA: On the local level?

MS: Local, regional, and national. However, there's a larger struggle with a political history. There have been a number of strands throughout the struggle-that is, strategies, ideas, ideologies. We've always had different approaches historically.

If you look at COSATU now, they have this alliance with the ANC and the SACP [South African Communist Party]. If you have a new federation, where is it going to align itself politically? We in NACTU will not align ourselves politically, but some in COSATU will be rigid-they won't see (continued on page 16)

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...NACTU themselves outside the alliance.

Our members come from various political schools. You don't organize workers on the basis of their political beliefs but on the basis of their shop floor struggles. That means they come from all sorts of strands. As a result, we in NACTU have fraternal relations with a number of political organizations.

And we are independent in making decisions. We are not politically linked to any political grouping. People can claim us, but whoever makes a claim—either PAC [Pan-Africanist Congress] or AZAPO [Azanian People's Organization] or whatever—we are not linked to them.

SA: So you think that, at this point, COSATU's adherence to the Tripartite Alliance [with the ANC and the SACP] obstructs the merger process with NACTU?

MS: That would be one of our demands. If we a have a federation, is it going to continue? Because we don't want it linked to any political opinion. Workers have got specific demands and problems.

So we believe the trade unions should be independent. If you look at Africa today— Limbabwe, for example-the union movement there has completely broken out of the party. Separate institutions all over Africa today. Now we can't go back where Africa comes from-leading ourselves to political parties. Because the labor movement in Africa is disengaging. So we can't go back and repeat their mistakes, because our colleagues in Africa are telling us, "Don't do it!"

SA: In the United States, we have so-called independent unions, yet they are really linked to the Democratic Party. But American union leaders claim to run the unions like a "business," negotiating wages and so forth with the employer, without taking "political" stands. How does NACTU view this pattern, which the AFL-CIO in my country puts forward for the rest of the world?

MS: It doesn't work for them. For example, the leadership of the AFL-CIO would like American workers to vote Democratic Party. But the workers are voting Republican.

SA: The problem in the United States, at least, is that there is no real alternative for workers to vote for. There is no workers' party, no labor party. What would you say for South Africa? Would you advocate a workers' party here?

MS: At this stage, I don't think it has a chance. I'll tell you why. Because there's this big euphoria that this government is going to deliver something. Until such time that the workers come to the conclusion that these people are fakes-and the masses come to that conclusion—you are not going to have such a development.

What we can do at this stage is to continue to educate and conscientize workers about issues that affect them—so they can understand that as workers they've got problems. Politicians have got political aspirations. And for them to get their aspirations—which is nothing more than an accumulation of wealth-they've got to ride on the backs of the workers.

SA: Several people whom I've spoken to here in South Africa have told mein discussing the problem of unemployment and retrenchments-that it is necessary to attract more investment, especially foreign investment. But it is often said that the struggle by the workers is scaring away investment. Is there indeed a contradiction between those two thingsthe need to create new job opportunities and the tight for workers' rights?

MS: That argument can be summed up in one word-nonsense. For the simple reason that unemployment in South Africa—we have 5 million people unemployed in this country nowhas been the process since 1924. Black people have been systematically kicked out of the mainstream economy of this country through various laws, administrations, and social engineering.

Now, those companies who are coming to invest in this country are going to invest in high technology. But our people don't have the technological or academic knowledge to be able to be trained. So even if these companies are coming, how many people are they going to employ? Very few.

So for the question of overcoming the unemployment problem in South Africa, we have to look at, for example, the housing problem. We need almost 6 million housing units. If you solve the problem of putting up houses, in a short space of time you are creating employment for masses of people. You build those houses, you electrify those houses. Once people have electricity in their homes, they'll need electric appliances. And so, you kick-start the CODESA and have the interests of the economy in that fashion.

SA: But these things aren't profitable as far as the private corporations are concemed.

MS: Are we looking at profits, or are we going to improve the quality of life of the people? We in the labor movement think profits are important, but you can only judge your success in terms of the quality of life. This country must invest in human beings. We must invest in those ventures that improve the quality of life.

SA: What are the issues in the ongoing radio and television broadcasting strike? I believe that concers a NACTU affiliate?

MS: Yes, MWASA [Media Workers Association of South Africa]. Basically, the SABC [South African Broadcasting Corporation] is a government institution. Within that structure, racism is inherent. You can't run away from that fact. Black people are discriminated against in terms of their working conditions. It's even worse for the women. Our sisters don't get any senior positions there, even if they qualify.

We're looking for more than simple wages. We're looking to change the structure there. Our people should have the ame opportunities that other people ar iven. If it's a question of our people no having skills, then SABC must make sure that people working there are given every opportunity to study and improve themselveslike that given to other people.

SA: How long has the strike been on!

MS: This is the third week now.

SA: Does there seem to be any motion?

MS: No, there doesn't. You see, the problem is that if you fight the SABC, you're fighting this government. Now, if they're going to relent, then they're going to capitulate. We're now being told that part of the problem with management is that the white unions are saying that if they give in, then they'll also go on strike. So, that's Catch 22 for management.

But we say, it's none of our business whether they go on strike or not. It they were honest and wanted to sacrifice some of their class privileges, they should have joined in the strike by now. And the probYou can't have two people doing the same job—a highly paid Black DJ, for example, will get about 40,000 rand a year. And you counter that with what the white DJ gets. The white DJ will get more than 160,000 a year. It's really an ocean apart.

SA: Is it possible to set up picket lines that would not let the white workers onto the premises?

MS: We don't have that culture in South Africa. But what we are considering is to ask for support in the community at large by withholding payment of licenses [for television ownership] to the SACP.

Companies we've got agreement [a union contract] with—like food companies and pharmaceutical companies-we're asking them to withhold their adverts. We're telling advertising agencies to withdraw their advertising from SABC. You must understand that we're talking to the white capitalists, so we're not getting a response. But we keep on pushing.

With companies, it's very easy. Like at simply sayine, c issue, saying, "You mustn't continue to Unilever. The workers at Unilever will simply go on a one-day strike over this support SABC with adverts. Withdraw them!" We'll use the pressure of the workers. And we think once we get to that level, then SABC will start responding.

SA: Is there anything else you'd like to say to our readers?

MS: Yes. A lot of people, because of what they read, believe there are changes in this country. But those of us who are on the receiving end know very well that there is good talk in South Africa. People are saying things you want to hear. But when you come on the ground-there's nothing. The quality of life is still the same.

So, there is no move toward democratization in South Africa, because for us democratization is not simply having politicians sitting in some parliament. Democratization means that you free people trom squalor. you tree people trom ignorance. You free people trom disease. And those things are not happening. So there's no democracy.

As in the French Revolution, it was the bourgeoisie who benefited. They were able to buy houses and property. But the poor didn't have money to buy. That's what is happening in South Africa.

The Black elite is like those in America. It is the Black elite that is given opportunities to buy houses in white towns and pay more than three times what the house is worth. And the poor can't afford it.

We must judge society from the poor who have had their quality of life improved. If those people's lives are still the sameor they are worse off-there's no democracy.

So don't take for granted that there is freedom in South Africa now. There is not. There is freedom for those who can afford to pay—the "French bourgeoisie." For the ordinary worker, there is still hell. •