"The policies decided at the recent ANC national policy

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nationalization as one option in order to realize the aspirations o' rder to realize the aspirations the people. But it cannot be elevated to the level of principle."

SOCIALISTACTION AUGUST 1992 9 should be established to oversee the process toward democracy, and that there should be an elected constituent assembly by the end of the year. On those basic demands, we'll engage in unprecedented mass action.

But at the same time, mass action around the local and sectoral questions of the people will continue. And there will also be mass action related to other detailed demands within the negotiations process. For instance, the issue in regard to the South African Defense Force, which is enforcing the killings of [our] people. Or what will happen to the South African Broadcasting Corporation-that is, the state media.

SA: What is the proposal of the ANC in respect to the Defense Force?

JN: Our basic proposal—in so far as Phase One of the interim government, the phase before electionsis that all the armed formations should come under joint control. You'll have subcouncils dealing with defense and law and order. Those multi-party structures should jointly control all the armed formations-the army, the police, the armed formations of the liberation movement, and any other armed formations that might exist.

Once we have had elections, we'll establish a comprehensive interim government. Then the issue of the integration of these various armed formations will be addressed. Ultimately, we want to establish police and a Defense Force that would be reflective of society as a whole-both in its policies and practices and in its racial composition.

SA: How would these "integrated" police structures operate during times of mass strikes, civil "unrest," or "states of emergency?"

JN: As far as issues of strikes or so-called unrest are concerned, the position of the ANC is that this is not a security question. Crises around wages or local problems give people the right to act in extensively in one working group [of CODESAJ. The position of the ANC, again, would be that if you handle the political problems that people have in a non-confrontational way, a state of emergency would not become necessary at all. That is our starting point.

But then situations could arise. You could talk about emergencies of a natural kind. If the drought that we're having now were to become even more extensive, then you would need emergency measures to avoid a major social explosion-caused by whatever problem.

And therefore, the agreement that was reached in the working group in CODESA ensured that the civil and political rights of the people are protected if that situation were to arise at all. And secondly, that the decision itself should be subject to a challenge by ordinary citizens.

SA: Does the ANC still abide by the provisions of the Freedom Charter?

ANC: We still stand on the Freedom Charter. But all policies are impacted upon simply by the development of society and changing realities. The Freedom Charter was adopted in 1955. When interpreting the Freedom Charter today, we need to take into account those realities.

The second point we need to make is that when working out policies, an organization or party must differentiate conference identified realized? Obviously not. You would need time. In that sense, I'm saying, we remain with the Freedom Charter, but in its interpretation we take into account present-day realities.

The Freedom Charter is our ultimate objective, but it will not necessarily be realized on the first day on which the ANC becomes the government.

SA: In regard to nationalizations— JN: And in regard to nationalizations in particular. The Freedom Charter has got certain demands, certain formulations: The wealth should be put back into the hands of the people-and the big companies, monopoly industry, the wealth beneath the soil. The question that arises is whether the realization of those demands would really mean, as a principle, nationalization.

The policies decided at the recent ANC national policy conference identified nationalization as one option in order to realize the aspirations of the people. But it cannot be elevated to the level of principle. You need to look at realities.

For instance, ask yourself a question: If you were to nationalize the mines today, would you have the skills and wherewithal to run them? Would you find yourself in a situation in which you have nationalized as a principle-and the mining industry collapses?

If you were to nationalize the mines, and this were to mean paying adequate might arise in the future?

JN: As far as the common interests are concerned, I don't think it is necessary to go into detail on this. It has been said over and over again. Simply to say that the ANC and the Communist Party agree on the establishment of a democratic order in South Africa. They agree that the democratic order should be based on the Freedom Charter-and all kinds of other policies that have been discussed and realized. And we also agree on the ways and means of reaching those objectives.

The alliance we have is based on certain principled agreement. The question would then arise—if once that democratic order is established—would the relationship change?

I think necessarily it would change. So far as the ANC is concerned, the realization of the Freedom Charter is our ultimate objective. So far as the CP is concerned, the establishment of a socialist South Africa is their objective.

So perhaps what one would need to point out would be based on the premise that I laid out earlier on: The day after we establish an ANC government would not mean the Freedom Charter. It would begin a process to realize the Freedom Charter. And in that phase, my own reading of the situation is that the cooperation would continue.

Perhaps in a much later stage, when the Party would have put the issue of socialism as its immediate goal, there would be a divergence between them. There could be a separation, but that separation doesn't mean the alliance would be dead on certain issues on which there is agreement.

That is one option. Another possibility, some people say-crystal gazing now—is that as things develop in that way, and the ANC continues to reflect the interests of the working people in the main, there might be the possibility of the two coming closer together. But this doesn't necessarily mean for socialism or communism.