Our main aim is to overthrow the [apartheid] government

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Following are excerpts from an interview with Kwedie Mkalipi, a leader of the Pan-Africanist Congress (PAC) in the Western Cape region of South Africa. The interview was given to Socialist Action Co-editor Michael Schreiber in Capetown on June 3, 1992.

"George," a member of the Workers Organization for Socialist Action (WOSA), was also present, and asked several questions.

Socialist Action: How do you and the Pan-Africanist Congress view the national negotiations in CODESA [Convention for a Democratic South Africal? constitution. How would you contrast your vision of a constituent assembly with that of the forces that participated in CODESA-including De Klerk, for that matter?

KM: The taste of the pudding is in the eating. You must call for an election for the constituent assembly based on universal franchise for all South Africans irrespective of color, political ideology, gender-free of any barriers. We will then accept the call for a constituent assembly.

Today they speak of "guarantees." They want guarantees for the whites, for the coloureds, for the Indians, and so forth. We reject that. We want democracy to be practiced here in the same manner as it is practiced everywhere.

SA: What are the main campaigns that the PAC is working on at the moment?

KM: Our main aim, of course, is to overthrow the government. That means we must intensify the struggle in all its forms, including armed force. We can not enter an agreement with the regime to cease our military operations against it.

We have not agreed in any way that we will stop attacking the government politically. We are still committed to mass action, because we are aware that armed struggle by itself will not achieve much without the cooperation of the people of the country.

SA: Is the PAC growing, recruiting new members?

KM: Very much, but I must admit, we have declared time and time again that we are non-racist, yet we have very few white people in our ranks. Which is a great shame for an organization like ours. You can't be saying something, and then at the end of the day don't produce the goods.

We must do something to change the image that we have. One understands there's a slogan that comes from the PAC: "One settler, one bullet." That was an economic slogan in response to the ANC, which, for instance, would would blow up empty telephone booths or place a limpet mine where it would not hurt anybody. So the slogan was devised by our army, that we would not waste our bullet, but use only one bullet for one white settler.

But you know, the slogan was taken over by mostly unpoliticized youth and became quite widespread. And it's become a very difficult thing to control because of the emotions involved in this. We are not that happy about it, but we're a democratic organization.

SA: Do you call for "Black rule?"

KM: We generally use the word "African..."

SA: Which people do you include within the term "African?"

KM: Everybody. All people who owe allegiance to South Africa. Obviously, we cannot say that people who exclude themselves from us are Africans. The AWP [the neo-Nazis], for example. We're not going to force this concept on all the people.

SA: How did the slogan "Black majority rule" come about?

KM: It came from America. For all I know, I may be wrong on this because when it happened, I was in jail. But this movement arose in 1971, and with the influence of Black Americans, the Black Consciousness Movement then arose in South Africa. It aroused the feelings of the people. It came at a time when the people didn't know where to go to. So it was easier for them at that time to arouse the people with that slogan.

To say I'm oppressed because I'm Black-that was the concept behind all that. But to us, it's a difficult concept to maintain because we are not only nationalists, we are Africanistic. We regard everyone in Africa as an African. We cannot therefore afford to say people of that area are not Africans because they are not Black. Let's take, for example, the Egyptians or Algerians. We say that if Africans must be Blacks, we would exclude a large number of the people.

So the Black Consciousness Movement has been using this slogan "Black majority rule" with the justification that we're oppressed because we're Black. But we say, yes it is true, but let's take it further.

For all I know, the Afrikaner, as an oppressor, is also terribly exploited by international capitalism. Therefore, we cannot really at the end of the day speak of majority rule. We must speak in the final analysis of workers creating a power and taking over. But we cannot take that up now on the political level, because that could be subject to misinterpretation and a lot of confusion.

George: So you wouldn't call for "African majority rule" either?

KM: Not at all. We call for a "democratic society."

SA: Does the PAC consider itself a socialist organization?

KM: Yes. Our current policy is devised on socialistic principles. It is a terrible pity that the Soviet Union collapsed, although I hasten to say that was not the fall of socialism, but of cerned. The oppression that was taking place in the Soviet Union-the exploitation that was taking place over there at the expense of those poor countrieswas also one of the causes of the collapse of the Soviet Empire.

But in spite of that, I still feel there is no answer to the economic problems of the poor without socialism. I'm still willing to be convinced that it is otherwise. I wish somebody could come and convince me that capitalism can solve these problems!

George: The PAC is committing itself to the overthrow of the regime. Yet the PAC recently met with representatives of the South African government in Nigeria. What is the strategy behind this?

KM: We don't want to just close doors and say we don't want to talk with them. We want to speak with them, but we know what we want. What we want from them is to hand over power. And if you think that the Afrikaner will just give you power, without your struggling to get it, you're just "waiting for Godot."

George: What report did you get from your comrades who went to meet De Klerk's representatives in Nigeria?

KM: Those guys said to us that they want to talk with us, but within South Africa. And we said, if you want to negotiate with us, you cannot expect us to accept that you become players and in addition become the linesmenthe ones who keep the score. You can't play the game, and then keep the score.

Next month: More interviews from the South African liberation struggle (AZAPO, NACTU, and COSATU).

... General strike (continued from page 1: “Defending women's”)

involved in the Aug 3-4 strike. NACTU informed its members, however, that they could engage in the strike action as individuals, in the interests of unity. And in quite a few regions, NACTU members and units did participate.

The Workers Organization for Socialist Action (WOSA) took part in the general strike and mass action demonstrations, but under its own banners and slogans. These included: "Mass action is the road to the constituent assembly."

The demand for a constituent assembly speaks to the basic democratic idea that the oppressed masses should decide their own political future. It is a means of propelling the liberation struggle forward against the white minority government.

But a truly representative and democratic constituent assembly, an assembly of all the liberation organizations, can only come about by means of mass struggle. The demand for a democratic constituent assembly isor should be-counterposed to the ANC's demand for "an interim government of national unity."

The Black freedom movement cannot achieve "unity" with the oppressor. The ANC leadership is mistaken in proposing to sit down in meetings with President De Klerk and his allies in the expectation that they will help prepare a constituent assembly.

The ANC is under great pressure to rejoin negotiations with the government. The United States, for example, sent Herb Cohen, assistant secretary of state for African affairs, to consult with both Mandela and De Klerk. Cohen expressed approval of the fact that the mass action campaign had increased the ANC's prestige. He stated that the campaign "might contribute to a solution if it gives a mandate to the ANC leadership to continue negotiations." (Christian Science Monitor, Aug. 5, 1992.)

The government is reported to have already agreed to new concessions, including the release of several hundred political prisoners and the key demand of an interim government by the end of the year.