An interview with John McNulty: Belfast Trotskyist emphasizes need to build a mass movement

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V 6 8 BUNK SUEEHEINGS Irish nationalists gather in Belfast on August 10, 1988, to protest the anniversary of the imposition of internment by the British in 1971. Thousands of Irish Catholics have been summarily imprisoned for periods ranging from six months to several years without charges being brought against them. staffwriter Hayden Perry visited Belfast, Northern Ireland. While there, he interviewed John McNulty, who is a former Belfast city councilor and the editor of Peoples Democracy's newspaper, An Reabhloid (The Revolution). Peoples Democracy is the Irish section of the Fourth International.

Socialist Action: What is the in Ireland today?

John McNulty: The main political factor at the present is the Anglo-Irish Agreement, signed three years ago between the southern Irish establishment and the British. Basically, it confirms Britain's right to occupy this part of the country. There are promises to control discrimination against Catholics and to moderate Loyalist rule here.

S.A.: Has this agreement actually affected life for Catholics here?

J.M.: No. What there has been is a lot of cover for the continuation of Loyalist domination. There is the appearance of change without the reality.

S.A.: I understand unemployment is very high here. Is there still a great disparity between Catholic and Protestant joblessness?

J.M.: Yes. Two-and-a-half times as many Catholics as Protestants are out of work. The proposals of the British to correct this disparity won't change anything because they oppose any form of affirmative action.

S.A.: I understand the Six Counties are ruled directly by Parliament in London.

J.M.: Yes, that is correct. There is a Secretary of State who is appointed directly by the British government as a sort of civil commander-backed up by British troops.

The local Stormont government became unworkable after the rise of the civil rights S.A.: What would the British like to see in place of their military occupation of the Six Counties?

J.M.: They would like the establishment of a devolved [local] government in Northern Ireland that would maintain Protestant ascendancy but take away some of the more objectionable features of their domination. They would also like to co-opt sections of the Catholic middle class.

S.A.: Why does the British government persist in occupying Northern Ireland? Why not pull out and leave the problem for the Irish to solve?

J.M.: There are a number of reasons the British cannot do this. The British have substantial investments in the North. Also they are expected by other imperial powers to keep order in this subordinate territory. They also see a parallel with Cuba and the United States. They realize the ultimate resolution of the problem of partition must be a socialist Ireland. This would be the end of any British influence or control.

S.A.: I understand Protestant workers enjoyed a monopoly of the good jobs in shipbuilding and textiles, but these industries are closing down. Doesn't this put the Protestant unemployed on the same level as the Catholic?

J.M.: The Protestants are still in a better position. Their rate of unemployment is lower and they have a better chance at any job openings.

The security apparatus employs a great many, who are almost exclusively Protestant. The Catholics are confined to the peripheral sectors of the economy.

S.A.: Is it possible for Protestant and Catholic unemployed to unite in struggle?

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J.M.: Protestant workers look to Westminster for help because Northern Ireland's economy has always been dependent on Britain. Protestant workers will turn to the Republican workers only when they see genuine class struggles that seem to be going somewhere, gaining important victories in the Twenty Six Counties as well as the North.

S.A.: How much of a problem is the cultural factor, the deep animosity between the two communities?

J.M.: It is hard to assess that factor. There is a saying: "The Catholics know who they are-Irish-but don't know what they want. While the Protestants know what they want—partition-but don't know who they are (Irish or English)."

If Protestants go to work in England they soon find they are not accepted as native-born Britons, despite their protestations of loyalty.

S.A.: What is the relation of the Unionists to the British in Northern Ireland?

J.M.: There are a number of Unionist parties, but they do not make decisions concerning events in the Six Counties. The British do that. But the British try to secure their agreement. When the Loyalists violently opposed the Sunningdale scheme for joini Protestant-Catholic rule, the British dropped it.

S.A.: I read an article in the Dublin press suggesting partition would be OK if the Catholics got equality and all their civil rights. Is this sentiment widespread among the Irish ruling class?

J.M.: First we have to stand this analogy on its head. If we had equality and freedom, there would be no need for partition. It exists to prevent equality and freedom.

The civil rights movement did not push the national question. They demanded equality and civil rights first of all.

Another aspect is clear to Trotskyists, but not to many on the Left. That is that England controls the Irish Republic as well as the Six Counties. They express their interests through the Irish bourgeoisie.

Uniting the country involves raising the class struggle. The national movement must involve the working class and its demands. Both the British and the Irish ruling classes fear such a development.

S.A.: Why did the civil rights movement decline?

J.M.: The movement was oriented toward the middle class and the Catholic Church. It was a sort of popular front, with considerable Communist Party influence. It had a minimalist program. After the attack of Bloody Sunday, the leaders gave up the perspective of building a mass movement.

K. MANNING political movement.

S.A.: Sinn Fein is the political arm of the IRA. Why don't they build the mass J.M.: For a long time, Sinn Fein was content to let the Irish bourgeois parties represent the Republicans, while they concentrated on supporting the IRA. They refused to take seats when elected to office.

Now they want to build a professional electoral party on both sides of the border. They are getting elected to city councils and taking part in civic affairs. They still boycott Parliament, since taking seats in Westminster would recognize Britain's right to rule Ireland.

S.A.: I understand their vote in the last two elections was disappointing, a drop from 5 percent to 2 percent.

J.M.: One problem is that Sinn Fein did not come to grips with the question of program. A demand that the British leave is not a program. What do you propose after the British have gone?

They consider themselves socialists, but take a very cautious approach. Their proposals are merely reformist. They don't understand how to use elections to build a mass organization that continues to grow between They had a lot of young people participating in the last election, but they did not have the program to hold on to them.

S.A.: You are saying then that a mass workers' movement must be mobilized on both sides of the border?

J.M.: Yes. And the economic crisis in the North and the South demands a socialist character to that movement.

S.A.: The IRA and Sinn Fein get a lot of support from the Irish in America.

J.M.: It happens that the movement in the States is part of our problem. In order to be successful, the Republicans need a democratic movement of support that goes beyond the Irish community in the United States. Limited to the Irish, it becomes only an Irish issue.

In the case of Nicaragua, the agitation is not confined to the Nicaraguans in the United States. It has become an issue concerning all Americans.

S.A.: Of course, the American government is deeply involved in Nicaragua.

J.M.: The U.S. government is also deeply involved in Ireland. They have been the strongest backer of British policy in Ireland. This is an issue all Americans can be concerned over.

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