The nuclear freeze must lead to total disarmament

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10 SOCIALIST ACTION JANUARY 1985 Socialist Action: How do you view the significance of Reagan's reelection?

Sidney Lens: I think it showed that you can't fight something with nothing.

There was no difference between the two parties on the question of the arms race except the insignificant difference that one party was for a 4 percent increase in the military budget and the other was for 7 percent.

They both agreed on quarantining the Nicaraguans, although the Democrats' position was a little softer. But there was not enough of a difference to give the American people a real choice between the two parties on the most important issue of the day.

No major problem in America will be solved unless and until you solve the problem of the arms race; not the feminist problem, not the problem of jobs, not the problem of security or a higher standard of living, not the problems of racism or sexism. None of those problems will be solved unless you can solve the problem of the arms race.

Given the fact that you had two candidates who were essentially similar on the arms race question, the American people really had no option. So you had the anomalous situation where 75 or 80 percent of the American people were in favor of the Freeze, but they voted for the candidate who was against the Freeze and against the candidate who was for the Freeze.

That happened because the issue was never presented to them. On the other questions-the economic questions, the question of the Supreme Court-there are differences between Mondale and Reagan, but there are none sufficient to outweigh the fact that we are in a momentary improvement in economic health. The man who initiated the recession of 1981-82 took credit for having gotten us out ôf it. The American people did not see the contradiction in that.

Where do we go from here? I think L- -4+14-1 Women and the shorter week Biggest mass Victory to the miners in Brazi's history upsurge Steel jobs under the knife new subscribers.

Year to take account of inflation.

The reduction we are offering is of 15%: 35.50 US dollars 35-hour week: we have to go back to some basic things. There really is a TweedledeeTweedledum aspect to the Democratic and Republican parties. Progress for social change has to be made outside of those parties because they both oppose any important and basic social change. The movement has to go back to the things that we have always done: protests in the street, lobbying, organizing at the grass-roots level, and so on.

S.A.: How do you see the future of the Freeze movement in the United States?

Lens: The Freeze movement made an enormous impact on America. I think it made a basic mistake in incorporating the words "mutual verification" in its position. The idea of "verification" is the excuse the American government has used for 35 years to avoid an agreement with the Russians.

I think they should have incorporated a perspective for general and total disarmament with the Freeze issue. They should have left out the word «The movement has to "verification, because "verification" conjures up the idea that you can't trust the Russians, and "You can't trust the Russians" is the central theme around which the arms race is built.

The Freeze campaign took millions of Americans-tens of millions-and it elevated their sights to think in terms of a nuclear freeze. But that was only a Artestsedatze friend - take advantage WHAT'S OUR COVeR STORY ST idea of disarmament into it; that the Freeze is the first step toward disarmament. They never won over a sizable segment of the youth because of that. The Freeze alone is not sufficient to galvanize American youth. It doesn't give them a sense of enormous change, of basic change. Disarmament, I think, would.

You have to remember that when we started the fight against the Vietnam War, the group of us that eventually became the leadership of the anti-Vietnam War movement began with the idea that the United States had to withdraw from Vietnam because it had no right to be there to begin with.

That was an idealistic concept. The majority of the people in the movement were talking about negotiations. But thére was nothing to negotiate, and young people saw that contradiction immediately.

The same relationship exists between the conceptions of "Freeze" and "abolish nuclear weapons."

So when you ask "What do we do now?" I think we have to continue to In that time there have been a number, of 2520N. Lincoln Ave., Dy Tramer use the Freeze slogan as an objective but tie it to the question of complete and total disarmament.

S.A.: We've been pointing out the danger of direct U.S. intervention in Central America for some time. Now, with the MiG scare raised by Reagan, the possibility of such an intervention seems even closer. How do you see a movement developing to counter that threat?

Lens: I am impressed by the Witnessfor-Peace movement. It is well-conceived. It works with the churches, setting up telephone trees all over the country and projecting the idea of sitting-in in congressional offices if anything untoward happens. I think that's a big step forward.

The impending intervention in Nicaragua and the state of the antiwar movement now cannot be compared with the situation in 1964-65. I think the Reagan administration makes a fundamental mistake if it thinks that it is going to solve the "problem" of Nicaragua merely on the military level. There's going to be a response from the American people and from the people of Latin America.

S.A.: Do you think the planned April 20 protests will draw significant participation from the American people?

Lens: I certainly hope so, but I don't think so. I think the American people will give Schultz and Gromyko the benefit of the doubt and wait for them to come up with something. I think there is a sense of relief on the part of many people who voted for Mondale and who were petrified by the idea of Reagan being reelected that, at least, Schultz and Gromyko are meeting.

S.A.: And how would the situation in Nicaragua affect the protests?

Lens: It depends on what happens. If there is an invasion of Nicaragua, there will be a big demonstration. If there isn't, there won't be. My feeling is that the chances are that there won't be [an invasion of Nicaragua] so long as Schultz and Gromyko are dealing with the broader question, although it is not ruled out. The United States did escalate the war in Vietnam, after all, even while Nixon was meeting with the Russians.

I think the main thing that the movement has to do is repair its situation with the youth. We have lost the support of the youth. The youth have made a complete about-face. It is amazing the amount of support that Reagan got at the university level.

It is really a manifestation of nihilism. You saw young people interviewed one after the other and each one saying, "Well, I disagree completely with Reagan, but at least he is a leader,' as if leadership in the wrong direction is the most important criterion for your vote. I think that the first thing we have to do is organize a large wave of teach-ins at the university level.

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repair its situation with the youth. We've lost their support."

small step. They never introduced the Tout

CONTRAS IN CENTRAL ANERICA... CIA THEN TRANSPORT THeSE MINES FOR NICARAGUAN PORTS!

ARE SHIPPED TO THEM... THe LLS. OPPOSES THE EXPORT OF VIOLANCE IN THE REGION.