We must remember how to fight

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Socialist Action: What do you say to the argument that if Reaganism is not defeated this year it will mean the demise of unionism in the United States?

Ed Mann: I don't think it will mean the demise of the union movement, if there is a movement, in America. I think that as long as you have people working for wages there will always be a union, or an attitude that there should be a union. The labor movement has to have a rebirth. We have to go back where we came from because it appears that we have forgotten how to struggle to get where we're at. And I don't see anything wrong with struggling to better your working conditions.

S.A.: What is happening with the various presidential campaigns here in Youngstown?

Mann: There is a group supporting the Jackson campaign. The Democratic Party here is split between Hart and Mondale. Mondale seems to have the support of the international unions in the area. I got a strange phone call from the Hart campaign. They wanted two unemployed steelworkers to meet with him and have a commercial film made. It's apparent that they only want to use the unemployed as puppets on a string, to come at their beck and call. They leave and we're here and nothing really changes.

I know Mondale was part of the Carter administration when we were trying our damndest to get government loans so the workers in the community could run the steel plant here. We couldn't get the time of day from them. And now they want to come in and say what they are going to do for Youngstown. I don't anticipate they will really do anything.

S.A.: Do you think that workers can ever gain by supporting a Democrat?

Mann: No. Because I don't think things will really change. I think we need more of a socialist type solution. Look at the fact that we don't have national health care, for example. People are worried about their health. Look at the utilities that are owned by private companies where people have to worry about whether they are going to heat or eat. Look at the young Blacks, for example, who are in their thirties and have never had a decent job. It's atrocious that a country this size can't come up with some new ideas. And I don't see where the Democrats or the Republicans have any new ideas.

Most people around Youngstown were raised to think the church will take care of you, the school will take care of you, the company will take care of you, the union will take care of you. You've got to take care of yourself. Some of the things you may have to do to get some results might not actually be legal in the strictest sense. Look at the sit-down strikes and the early organizing days, the period of Debs when they took on the National Guard in some areas and even won. I think workers have to take (continued on page 10) messs....

Striker at Trumbull Memorial Hospital in Youngstown, Ohio, in 1982. Workers Solidarity Club, led by Ed Mann, and local unions mounted a solidarity campaign with the hospital workers that included weekly marches and picketing, in defiance of a court order that attempted to limit picketing. companies are not profitable. Do we have to suffer and make starvation wages because that is the only way we are going to help the companies make more money?

S.A.: The official labor movement is getting ready for the Democratic Party National Convention in July. The AFL-CIO and almost every single union is supporting Mondale. What do you think of the official labor movement's strategy of backing the Democrats and dumping Reagan as the solution to their problem?

De La Fuente: Well, you know, we've always been put in a position of voting for the lesser of two evils. That has always been the mistake of organized labor. I think everybody feels that anybody is better than Reagan and I agree with that, to a certain extent, as long as people do not have any other alternative.

I think we are the only major industrial country in this world that does not have a labor party. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans can ever have the interests of working people in mind. There has been some talk among people about the formation of a labor party and, to tell you the truth, I think that this is the only solution for the American worker. There has to be a political party with a political voice that has nothing in mind except the interests of the working people in this country. Unfortunately, we are not at that stage.

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Socialist Action June 1984

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...De La Fuente: new direction ...Mann: how to fight back «Workers have to take things into their own hands, not as individuals, but as a union."

has to happen, but I don't know is going to happen in my lifetime.

I think that the strategy of backing Mondale, even before he is nominated by the Democratic Party, is a sign of political pressure that the workers are putting on the leadership. It is a sign that, not the leadership of the AFL-CIO, but the workers themselves are sending a message to the leaders saying we cannot continue this way.

For various reasons the American worker has been politically more isolated than any other worker in the world. One reason is that the worker in the United States has had better conditions than workers everywhere else. And for years organized labor, up until maybe the last five years, was able to go to the negotiating table and negotiate a few cents more here and there. We lost so much steam, so much of our fighting ability, over the last 20 years because we didn't do anything. We got whatever they gave us and they gave us a little because they were making tremendous profit.

S.A.: In the past your local has played an important role in fighting government attacks on undocumented workers. Could you tell us something about the suit that your local filed, and why the local felt it was important to get involved in an issue like this one?

De La Fuente: I've been the business agent for the Molders union for the last five years. One of my beliefs is that everybody needs a union, no question about it. Every worker needs a union and somebody to represent them. But I think that organized labor has failed over the last two decades to really be concerned with the needs of the workers in general. Labor unions were formed for one specific purpose-to represent workers. They were never formed to represent just white workers, yellow workers, green workers. Many labor unions have made the mistake of not looking at it that way.

In 1982 the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) started raiding factories that we represent and harassing people. They were harassing our members, arresting our members. We felt it was just one more attack on workers in this country. They didn't raid big office buildings or fancy places. They raided factories where workers were represented by unions. They didn't raid that many nonunion factories. At the same time that it was an attack on a certain class of people, it was an attack on labor itself. It was a way to go after union shops and harass organized labor.

We have seen that these people, the so-called "illegals, are used to break strikes. These people are exploited. These people are used to keep the wages of American workers down. In the Los Angeles area, for example, where there is a heavy Mexican-American and illegal alien population the wages are a lot lower than in this area. It is not a secret that these people are used to replace workers on the job. It is not a secret that companies call the INS only when these people want a union.

S.A.: What are the main reasons why your union has taken such a strong position in opposition to U.S. intervention in Central America? Why have you sponsored meetings of Central American trade unionists to come to the United States to present their views?

De La Fuente: There is a tremendous connection between workers in Latin America and workers in the United 10 Socialist Action States. We are not safe in this country from the methods used to destroy unions in a country like Guatemala. What is the difference between the way Reagan destroyed the air controllers' union (PATCO) and what they have done to the bottlers union at Coca-Cola in Guatemala?

We believe that the money we pay in taxes to the government should not be used to kill workers in other countries. They exploit workers in these countries and the jobs that we lose here they move there. I don't think that we have opposite interests from workers in these countries who are trying to organize unions and to get better wages.

Some of my members ask me, "Why do you care about El Salvador or Guatemala? We are here and we have enough problems ourselves. " The reason why they are using my tax dollars to maintain a dictatorship in El Salvador should be my concern. Working people are the ones who pay the most taxes in this country. Multinational corporations don't pay the taxes. We pay the taxes. It should be your business, my friend, if the Guatemalan people are making $1.50 a day. That is the reason why you are going to be making less money here.

S.A.: There have been a number of defeats nationally such as the Greyhound and PATCO strikes, and with the autoworkers and steelworkers. What do you think is the mood of the workers? Are we going to see further defeats or are we going to see a more organized De La Fuente: I definitely hope that we are going to see a more organized fight. I think that the workers are going to start putting more and more pressure on their local unions and their international unions. I think that organized labor itself, especially the big leadership, has to understand that you have got to do something. We have to completely change our posture and our strategy. We are at war with these people. We see it every day now.

I believe that most of the unions have lost their guts. And they are going to have to go back and rethink some of the positions they have taken. The opportunities were there, with PATCO and Greyhound, for organized labor to make a showing to this administration. I don't know if we will ever again see an opportunity like we saw with PATCO or Greyhound for organized labor to come together behind one single union and say "no more!" But the AFL-CIO blew it. They could have had the backing of the majority of American workers in not allowing Reagan to destroy PATCO and not allowing the Greyhound settlement.

S.A.: What do you think the labor movement should have done?

De La Fuente: What should have happened with Greyhound and with PATCO is that the AFL-CIO should have said we are going to call a general work stoppage. I don't want to say this because it sounds radical. I think at that time there was no other solution. The AFL-CIO should have said to the present administration, "We are not going to allow you to destroy this union. You've gone as far as you are going to go with organized labor." I think that would have been a very simple decision to make. The majority of organized labor would have supported that.

_BUILDINGIUNIONE LABORINOTES ICONFERENCE JUNETS JUNEL 5, 16, 17 • YPSILANTI MICHIGAN For further information, contact Labor Notes at (313) 883-5580.

Labor Notes, P.O. Box 20001, Detroit, MI 48220 things into their own hands, not as individuals, but as a union. And I think they can change things.

S.A.: Have you given any more thought to the idea of running independent campaigns for office?

Mann: I think there is room for an independent with a good grass-roots following who would not say, "I'm going to run and here is my platform? but would say, "let's run together and let's develop a platform so we can reach out to the people who really need some changes" But I wonder about one person in Congress being any more than just a spokesman for people. Probably the way to do it is to really build from the community itself, run people for office within the community, change the community before you think about changing the country and the national government.

We have what we call a solidarity club here in Youngstown. There are about 200 people-men and women of all colors and persuasions. I think down the road it is very likely we could run people for city council or the state legislature.

S.A.: I know you said that you worry about a labor party being a bunch of Kirklands or Meanys...

Mann: Or McBrides.

S.A.: Have you given any thought as to how a real labor party could develop?

Mann: Yes, I think a farmer-labor party structured much like the old ones were has potential. You have to take care of the immediate needs of the people in your area. You don't come in and say here is our platform. You say let's build a platform. But really start it from the bottom and develop the ideas that people want to move forward on. Don't come in with three or four big international unions and the AFL-CIO and say, "Here is what we are going to do for you?' That's been our problem in the union movement. You pay your dues and the international will do it for you. I think you've got to do some things for yourself. And that means the people on the bottom have to be totally involved.

S.A.: One of the things you mentioned you are involved with is strike support. Can you talk about some of the experiences you have had?

Mann: Most of them have been very frustrating. We have seen a very strong move by the companies around here to bring in professional union-busting legal teams. The international unions really don't want any help. They don't want anybody to come in on their turf. A lot of these strikes are unwinnable because of the way they are structured. Nobody wants to challenge injunctions or have sit-ins and so on.

There has to be somebody out there that supports strikers because international unions are very business oriented in the way they operate. They want to run everything from the top down and they want very little input from the rank and file.

S.A.: You say that many strikes are unwinnable the way they are structured. How would you see them being winnable?

Mann: Well, I think you have to reach out to the community. You have to prepare ahead of time when the contract is running out. You have to gather the support of the people in the community. You have to have some credibility within the community. You cannot just be a union for the people who are in that plant. You have to be a union for the whole community.

S.A.: People are told now that they have to accept concessions-that the companies are going broke-and if they don't accept concessions there are a lot of other people who want their jobs. How do you think the unions should (continued from respond to this?

Mann: So many unions have given concessions without any control over the decisions the company will make on how to use the benefits of those concessions. How many companies have agreed to use the money that they have won through concessions to modernize the plant, to give the union some say-so in what product is made, what it will be sold for, the quality of the product? The workers are just getting promises and some of those promises have not been fulfilled, and I don't think they will be. I think the name of the game is who has the power, and if the corporations have the power they couldn't care less what the workers want.

I feel very stongly that if there are going to be concessions, and this is the real world, you had better have some say on what those concessions will mean to the workers. The management rights section of every contract actually strips you of any power at all in management decisions.

S.A.: If the money is used for modernization that will cost jobs too.

Mann: Not if there is a shorter workweek.

S.A.: What do you think needs to be done to get that?

Mann: You know, we've established child labor laws, workers' compensation, social security, and safety and health laws. We've got everything from legal aid to eye care to medical care. What is wrong with making the issue of a shorter workweek one of the issues for the unions to fight for? There are people still living in Youngstown who remember the 12-hour day. But we achieved the eight-hour day. It was within our lifetime that these things have changed, and they can change still more.

S.A.: What about the question of the military budget and the large amount of money that is spent for the military rather than basic human needs? This is an issue where the AFL-CIO has gone along with the Pentagon, saying we need to defend the country. What do you think of that?

Mann: Defend the country from whom? From ourselves? I'm sure we are not under as terrific a threat as the media would like us to believe. The media is controlled by the big corporations and the Defense Department. If we think we can be the policeman of the world then we've got another guess coming.

I don't think our country is going in the right direction. We are always looked upon, maybe not honestly, as the helping hand of the world. Now the helping hand has got a gun in it. We're quick to sell defense and military equipment to many foreign countries. We criticized Germany for being the arms provider of the world in the early part of the century. Now we've become that.

S.A.: One of the big campaigns the union officials, such as the steel union, have been on is this big anti-imports campaign, where they say that we need to protect the profits of the employers. What do you say about that?

Mann: I think imports are a bogeyman. They exist but let's not kid ourselves. Money has no patriotism, the dollar has no loyalty. Imports are a fact of life.

I don't think the workers around the world are our enemy. What about the Mexican, Taiwanese, and Korean workers? They are being abused in these countries. A lot of them don't have unions, the union leaders are killed off, and everybody who is a radical is run out of the country. Let's look at what the United States did in Chile. The country democratically elected Allende, and the U.S. government did everything to destroy him-and they did.

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Jeff Mackler: "LABOR DISCUSSION

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